DVD - brace yourself it's long

[wedford]

Hi,

I know there are prior posts on DVD presentations (ad nauseum) however, they're not accessible anymore and I'd like thoughts/views on this subject from others who, I know, are a just a WEE bit smarter than myself. (O.K. allot!)

First of all, let me say I am a tried and true loyal fan of PET! The program is the BEST when it comes to making a slideshow for the pc. So many possible ways to tweak your creation that it truly is - "truly only limited by your imagination". Looking at some of the presentations made by other users and following the forum posts I realize that I just scratch the tip of the iceberg. It seems however, there are only a few items, that seem to be constantly requested, that are on everybody's wish list. 1. music-timeframe thumbnails. 2. more animations. and 3. Make presentations into VCD/SVCD! The last seems to be the most common by far and the one that concerns me. (I could go through the convoluted process of PC-VCR, and was going to do so, but I heard that besides being a difficult process to learn, resolution is a problem and you don't have the ability of a DVD to "jump" in an individual show or from presentation to presentation.) With PTE I've made a few presentations that, while nothing too intricate, I thought came out pretty good. I can only hope and pray that PTE that will some day allow me to share these with others through DVD presentation. While it will never be as sharp as on a PC, many people only have access to a DVD player and instead of everybody crowding around a little computer screen you could show it on the "big screen" in the "recreation" room for everyone to view. Alas, this "upgrade" if every happening, doesn't seem to be in the near future. I would gladly pay for this ability - maybe, as an added feature to PTE that individuals could opt out of or even as a standalone program that would allow you to "import" a PTE presentation. Even if one could not edit a PTE slideshow in it, after seeing how PTE itself works and the quality it has, I know it would be - again the "BEST" in it's class. Until that happens I'm left with others I'm not so sure about - ProShow Gold, XATshow, FlyVCD, PicturetoTV, SSMM. I kind of narrowed it down to the first two but;

ProShow Gold - quality (I need regular VCD's not SVCD's, and I don't know, but are all mpeg 1's alike as far as resolution/sharpness?) and the price (Even though I might just have to use the regular VCD quality - ProshowGold allows you to make "menus" for more than one show per DVD. (Regular ProShow, while cheaper, won't let you do this. I use Nero to burn and I think I can put more on a CD with this but a menu?)

XATShow - transitions (can you use them with a VCD?) is the output mpeg1 or mpeg? And is it sharper than PROShow?

Again, I WISH I COULD USE PTE FOR THIS! I'm so happy with it there's not even a question that if I have a choice between something for the DVD or PC I'd use something else other than PTE .

THIS IS A GREAT FORUM. By allowing posts on competitive products in somewhat the same category extolling pro's/con's, it's one that exemplifies what a forum should be! This to me alone indicates how result oriented PTE is and why it is the standard others should be measured by!

[Truelight]

I've been experimenting with a wide variety of VCD-DVD programs and have found that they fall into two basic categories:

- Those that create an .mpg "movie" from your stills, (and thus allow transitions)

- Those that are true "slideshow" programs in that they do not create an .mpg but do not allow transitions.

Now...since transitions would seem to be a big deal to some, it would seem that the former option would be best. HOWEVER... my experiments would tend to show that anytime you take stills and make "frames" of a movie from them, you will lose quality. The programs that use this approach sacrifice quality for effects...an obvious trade-off. Many of the VCD-DVD programs seem to have gone this route though.. ProShow Gold, Ulead DVD Pictureshow, Pictures-to-TV, etc. Perhaps if effects are -that- important to you, these will be a good choice.

Other programs, Xatshow is the best example, do not create an .mpg movie (made up of frames which have to be "rendered" - Isn't that what they do to fat and meat scraps??!)

The shows made with these programs are "cuts-only", but the image quality in my opinion is far better.

I'm testing the new Ulead DVD Pictureshow Version 2 tonight and would hope perhaps they've found a way to attain both quality AND effects... but I'm not holding my breath.

You can get a great education on all things VCD here --

VCDHELP

I've been an advocate for a PTE (not PET!) VCD component, but if it were to output .mpg files I'd say don't bother. Conversely, if it had the power of PTE and the versatility and quality of Xatshow.... it would be multimedia heaven.

[jayspry]

Have you taken a look at "Pictures to CD & DVD" by Magix ( http://usa.magix.com/index.php?id=411 )? I purchased it from the Exchange here, but have not installed my DVD burner yet. I looks very interesting. I don't believe it is up to PTE as far as a show generator, but it might help in the DVD issue.

jayspry

[wedford]

Thanks for the replyTruelight ,

indeed - PTE(Sorry about the spelling. I guess my fingers don't work very well, can't be my brain, at least I hope not.

- judging by the amount of your posts and reading your comments I have no doubt as to your thoughts. Transitions do seem to be related to the presentation quality. I'm with you when picture quality is the primary concern. It would be nice if Ulead or perhaps the program that jayspry (Pictures to CD & DVD) works (Thanks for the info jayspry - I'm downloading the demo program right now and will check it out)

[Danabw]

Having done all the formats in question for slideshows (PC, VCD/SVCD, DVD "picture" slideshows w/out transitions and DVD "movie" slideshows w/transitions) I would say that though there are trade-offs in sharpness when going from picture slideshows to "movie" slideshows, when you move up to DVD the trade-offs get to the level where they become insignificant for me. I'm sure you could stand a few feet from the TV and discern differences. But from a normal viewing distance (and closer) the clarity and sharpness of the DVD slideshows I've made just amazes me.

I never felt VCD/SVCD were of much use (see, I can be picky too! :-) ) The quality just wasn't there at any distance, and too many of my friend's DVD players didn't handle them (especially SVCD). The quality of true MPEG2 DVDs are another story - the images are quite sharp and detailed, and being able to seamlessly combine both digital video and stills in the same show allows you to have a lot of fun.

DVD burners are as low as $175 on sale (and likely lower - haven't checked recently). DVD-capable programs are at and well under $100. The main stumbling block for most would be the render time, which admittedly is significant (P4 2.4 = three times actual movie length to render). Other issues include DVD format (+R or -R) but even that isn't as big an issue as it seems, as both formats will work on about 85% + of the DVD players out there. To put it another way, I have yet to find a DVD player that won't play the DVDs that I burn, even when the format is _not_ supposed to be compatible with it. (Aside: If I was buying a DVD burner now I'd go w/the +R format, it's the more "modern" format and was built for compatibility.) In my experience VCD and SVCD have more limited compatibility w/DVD players.

If you have a fairly recent computer (or even an older one if you don't mind rendering overnight) and can spare the change for a DVD burner and some software, there is a lot of fun to be had. I still use PTE for PC slideshows, which I still make in some cases. For example, for a show that I"m going to distribute to a lot of people (e.g., 30 copies for one of my son's classrooms) a PC show makes more sense since the media is cheaper and the burn/copy time is shorter (I have 50 CD autmated copying machine). But most of my shows that I make these days for my family and close friends are DVD.

I've said this before on the board - the folks who have seen my shows over the years on PCs and now see them on the TV prefer the TV versions unanimously - that's right, I haven't had anyone say "Gee, can't you make them so we can watch them on the little PC monitor instead? :-) They just love the high quality sound from their entertainment center, the large image size on the TV, the image quality is great, and they prefer the comfort of watching in their den/family room rather than huddling around a computer. If you're developing shows to please your audience (and I am), that's a powerful motivator. :-)

Dana

[wedford]

Wow, first, I get a detailed response from Truelight then helpful thoughts from jaspry and now a note from Danabw that has more insights. Thanks! I know with your minds working on this I'll get some great information.

Concerning the idea of a DVD burner though - $175? (and then more for needed software) I grant you they are coming down in price but I looked around briefly and the best I could find was $225 for an HP. This does include a few software programs and I know it's better than what they used to be. But that's the best price I found, and if I go with the best price - is it a case of "you get what you pay for"? Who knows if the software will do what I want? Or can I somehow use PTE then with a DVD burner? (Give me a break, I'm just learning) I'd still like to try doing things on the cheap - my system is an AMD 1600+XP with 256 DDR PC2100 mem, 2 hard drives and XP and W98 double booted. If I do get a DVD burner after all - will I have to upgrade?

I'm still hoping XAT, ProShow or Ulead will fit the bill. (I don't think I got the answer to, "are all Mpeg1's the same resolution or sharpness?" I'm limited to making VCD 's (mpeg1's) because it's the only format that will play in my relatives (and I believe most people) players for the TV. I looked for some way to get around this and I found a trick at "VCDhelp.com" saying to change the SVCD header with a program called TPGEnc, and if you can then maybe the player will be fooled into thinking it's a regular VCD and play it. (It said if it worked you would then get the SVCD quality) .....................It didn't work for me, but maybe it's because when I use NERO to write the MPEG after changing the header - NERO says it's "invalid" and still looks at it as a MPEG1. I guess when burning a MPEG it will include necessary files needed for playback and they're different depending on what kind of MPEG you're burning.

Anyhow, I love the tips. Again - I WISH THAT PTE........

[Michel]

I am going to push a small blow of mouth !

I tested all these software and viewed slide shows on my reader DVD. Nobody is satisfactory: absence of transitions, long and bad encoding... The subject of PTE is perfectly clear: slide show on PC !!!

Why to look for the other thing for this not still completed software ?

[Guest guru]

Yes, I agree with Michel. PTE is a software designed to make slideshows on PC with the best quality, and I am not so sure Igor has in mind (at least for now) to enter into competition with all the software able to create VCD/DVD from still pictures.

Besides don't let's forget this job is very difficult for a software conceived primarily to make slide shows, not movies.

Again: DVD is here, but how long will it last? Blue laser DVD are not so far (read this news on Taiwan News). And what about TV standards? They are again too incertain and in a phase of development: the HDTV seems close, but which HDTV? (See this article by Peter K. Sheerin).

[wedford]

Thanks for the responses I think.

Considering the last ones you would think that I am totally displeased with the PTE and want to go entirely to DVD. Hardly the case. I, if I wasn't clear before I am completely satisfied with the experiences with this program! So much so that I would like to find a way to make it available to everyone I know. Unfortunately at this time, PTE cannot be transcribed to a DVD, which happens to be the most common entertainment component among people that I know. I praised PTE's forum because it allowed conversation that while seeming on the surface to undercut PTE did in fact only substantiate the impression that PTE's primary concern, and it's advocates, was to further knowledge. Yes, DVD's, or anything might become obsolete in years if not days and even then would the masses be financially able, or would it be sensible to embrace the news, trash their old systems and go run out and get the latest new thing? Would that "new thing" even last or should we wait? I'm sure the one after it, right around the corner is the one, right? 8 tracks, cassettes, etc. yes, everything changes, but for now I'm doing what I can.

So, thanks again for the responses.

[Danabw]

This is a fun and interesting discussion!

Wedford:

To specifically answer your question - no, all MPEG1s (or any digital video file) are not the same even if they are the same format. The all are encoded/rendered, which entails trade-offs in speed and compression (and amount and type of compression is the largest factor in perceived final "quality"). So it matters very much what encoder your program uses, as the encoder used in that program will determine the resulting quality. I haven't played w/Xatshow, since it only does VCD/SVCD, but others here have indicated that they liked the quality of that tool - just remember how subjective this all is. You'll have to see it for yourself to judge. (Aside: There are stand-alone video encoders, one of the absolute best is TMPGEnc (Tsunami MPEG Encoder) that has free and $$ versions - see http://www.tmpgenc.net. It will output just about any format you desire (VCD, SVCD, DVD, etc.) at a very high quality level. It's not a slideshow tool.)

The HP DVD 200i recorders were as low as $169 or so before Christmas. They will be at that price (and lower) in the future - that's what hardware prices do, they fall. :-) Keep looking around if you're interested. Dell often had them marked down late last year. The HP drive is a very good drive, and comes with a nice software bundle that would allow you to make DVDs, but like most you would probably end up shopping around for other software fitted to your specific needs.

Guido: Interesting points. Red laser DVD will be here for some time. It has very large large maket penetration (especially the last year or so), and companies have similarly large investments in it. Likely it will exist along-side blue light as a less expensive option for some time. If you read the article you pointed to, you see that there are two competing formats announced and delays are likely due to these continuing "format wars."

The NEC-Toshiba proposal will increase the capacity of discs to between 15 and 30 gigabytes from 4.7 to 8.5 gigabytes at the moment. The pair also have plans for a 40 gigabyte disc.

The Blu-ray group will multiply the maximum data capacity of disc by five to 27 gigabytes.

From another article:

These two formats have their pros and cons. Currently, Toshiba uses the cons of blu-ray as a major disadvantage to the consumer. Blu-ray will not be backwards-compatible, as the current standard has a rigmarole of disc requirements, caddys, and other issues that will force consumers to keep both players around. The new proposed standard from Toshiba/NEC will allow red-laser discs to be read in the blue-laser players, something that will save consumers money, and in the manufacturing side, is more cost-effective to produce than the blu-ray discs.

So if you're waiting for everyone to be done and have the "last" format, you may have a longer wait than you expect. I'd put my money on the newer standard from Toshiba/NEC, as the industry will have a much tougher adoption curve if the new players won't handle folks extensive red laster DVD collections. If both formats arrive, then we'll have to see who "wins." Hopefully (and most likely) compatibility and convenience will rule the day and blue-laser will outlast blue-ray.

I like what a comedian I saw one time said, "I'm not buying anything else until they promise to stop inventing things!"

:-) Silly, but funny.

I don't see HDTV broadcast standards settling down too quickly, and as the article notes we'll likely end up with several "final" standards for broadcast to fit different types of content. But none of that keeps red laser DVDs played on a DVD player from playing on any HDTV system. My neighbor has a 65" HDTV and progressive scan DVD player - my DVDs look great on it and will not matter what the broadcast standards end up at.

Finally, making a DVD slideshow now doesn't destroy any source pictures any more than making it w/PTE does. You can always revisit them in another format in the future if you want to. Isn't that part of the fun?

Michel:

Why to look for the other thing for this not still completed software ?

The software is available from several vendors, is quite complete, and can be used to make wonderful DVD slideshows now. Transitions (far beyone what PTE offers), multiple audio tracks, and ability to include video make it a fun and flexible alternative to PC slideshows w/PTE for some of us. Another flexibility point - the tool I use for slideshows allows me to output to DVD or video (e.g., VHS tapes) so I can create the show once and output to multiple formats if desired.

This is not an "either/or" situation, of course. It's a case of multiple options, each with excellent possibilities. We would have a lot of things to say to a 35mm slideshow fan who tried to tell us that PTE isn't a reasonable option because the quality isn't as good as 35mm and the CDs/hard drives we store our data on won't last as long as slides!

Loyalty to PTE is a good thing, as its a great program and Igor is a dedicated developer who listens to his customers. However, there _are_ other excellent options out there if you want to distribute in formats other than Windows EXEs on CD-ROMs.

Dana

[Lin Evans]

I am going to push a small blow of mouth !

Translation - I think - "I'm going to mouth off a bit....."

I can't help myself - I'm still ROTFLMAO It's amazing how the translation software does a "literal" translation - I really admire those who have the energy to use it. I get bogged down just trying to make sense in my native tongue - I can't even imagine trying to translate each sentence with software. My congratulations to all our forum associates who do this! It's a credit to the energy and interest in this product that our non-English speaking participants have the dedication to do so. I seriously doubt that most of us who are native English speakers would take the time to use an electronic translator to translate French or Russian, etc., and participate on a forum like this.

Best regards, and thanks to all for the dedication and participation here - great forum indeed !!!

Lin

[Michel]

All the subtleties of the language can not be understood, when one is not English.

At least you laughed...

I wanted tell:

I'm going to "GUEULER UN COUP" !!! --- To you translate !!!

Please come to the french forum and in french.

Greetings from France

[Michel]

http://www.ocloudsoft.com/download.htm

A very good software !

It to say to you that I participated in the French translation of the software.

[Danabw]

one of my translation sites says "Yell a blow."

The other said "GUEULER A BLOW"

Dana

[Lin Evans]

one of my translation sites says "Yell a blow."

I tried about 12 different translation packages and the majority couldn't understand the first word. They all understood the last word. I got "yell a blow," "bawl a blow," etc.

I suspect that the translation software is oriented toward business rather than colloquial conversation, and because of this, idioms and phrases which are common "slang" in a given language are lost in the translation. As Michel said, the subtleties are lost in translation. It does make it fun, and I suspect it's just as amusing to see the English to French translations when trying to decipher our non-sensible idiomatic phrases.

[ADB]

I have asked this question before on this forum but have never seemed to have got a definite response so I will ask again here as it seems to be appropriate.

Now Recorable DVD is here do we we not have the best of both worlds. Can we not Output our PTE show directly to the DVD Recorder and record it? - just as you would to VHS (I'm guessing here as I don't own a recordable DVD)

OK Quality will not be as good as a PC monitor but would be as good as any other software which encodes to a DVD e.g Proshow Gold etc

It seems now we have Recordable DVD that we will allways be able to use PTE to make DVD Slide shows the quality of these shows will then be dependant on future developments in the quality of recordable DVD Hardware?

Am I on the right track or have I missed some major point?

[Truelight]

When making shows for distribution to the "general public", no one really cares what software you used to create it, much the same as no one care what brushes were used to make a painting. What they do care about is:

- Ease of use -- Yes, you can make an autoloading CD with PTE, but when issues of screen resolution, processor performance, installation of MP3 players, etc. come up, is the unknowledgable user gonna be able to figure these out?

- Quality of the image - Yes, sometimes we photographers can get down to splitting hairs, but what I'm talking about are obvious things like rough and jerky dissolves, flickering images, sound that breaks up. Even a rookie view can spot these problems

- Can I view it with common and inexpensive equipment? - The VHS format became widely accepted because it was cheap, easy to use, and widely available. (Though there are still many people who struggle to operate a VCR!). The DVD format is fastly becoming the 21st-century VCR.

PTE still makes probably the best show available on the PC platform (unless we go to Macromedia or the high-end tools) with the greatest flexibility for author-control of sync and other options. It remains my choice when I'm making a show I will run on my own equipment. But.... Given sync issues, platform inconsistencies, resolution differences, etc., I try to make sure the people I develop shows for with it are not computer novices.

The VCD/DVD programs out there vary widely in their quality, features, etc and while an increasing number of DVD players will play a VCD, not all will.

When I can mail a disk to my grandmother and she has no trouble viewing the show, I will know the technology has arrived. We're not there just yet.

For a quick update, I tested the new Ulead DVD Pictureshow v2 last night. I've not had much time to play with the software, but would say that for a program that makes .mpg movies from your stills (so that it can do transitions), it has the smoothest transition effects of it's genre, without sacrificing too much quality. However... if image quality is still your biggest objective, PTE on a computer is top choice. For best image quality in a VCD show (w/o transitions), Xatshow remains my pick.

I'll post a full review of the new Ulead product after I've tested it more. I sure wish Beechbrook or someone might entertain hosting -all- slideshow types, regardless of the authoring software! We could all learn a lot more. Talk is cheap -- pictures tell the story!

[Guest guru]

I tried about 12 different translation packages...

There is nobody here who read "The notorious jumping frog of Calaveras County" by Mark Twain? I hope an American doesn't need an Italian teacher to learn something about Mark Twain...

Well, I think a translation software cannot (for now) do better than Mark Twain when he re-translates literally his tale from French to English!

[Lin Evans]

Well, I think a translation software cannot (for now) do better than Mark Twain when he re-translates literally his tale from French to English!

I'd like to read that re-translation - I can just imagine the humor.....

Lin

[Danabw]

Ulead's DVD picture show's biggest problem for me in the past (among others) was the limit of 99 images per show. The new version doesn't clearly state in the FAQ if they've removed that limitation:

Q: How many photos and slideshows can I put on a single disc?  

A: You can have as many as 99 slideshows on one disc. For CD slideshows, there is a limit of 1900 photo and menu elements per disc. For DVD slideshows, the number of photos you can include is limited by the capacity of the disc.

Per disc info, but not per-show info.

Any ideas, Truelight?

Dana

[Danabw]

ADB:

You can't just copy a PTE presenation exe to a DVD and then run it in your DVD player. Your DVD player isn't a Windows computer, and would not recognize the exe. DVD players require a specific DVD format (MPEG2) and file/directory layout on the DVD disc.

So no - you can't copy a PTE show to a DVD and play it in a DVD player. The only way I know of to get a PTE presentation on a DVD would be to play your PTE presentation on your PC, take the video output from your video card while it is playing (assuming your video card provides video out) and record on to tape on a VHS deck. Then capture that video back from the VHS tape to your computer as an AVI file and use software to author and encode the AVI into MPEG2 (DVD format) on a DVD. Not simple or convenient, and quality would be VHS-level.

Dana

[LES]

Danabw,

The Philips DVD Recorder will record directly from a TV. Therefore, it appears it is possible to play a show on your PC and at the same time, use a scan converter to send the signal to a TV. The TV Out feature on some video cards would do the same thing, right? Then, output from the TV to the DVD Recorder.

The key is what quality picture you get on your TV and that would probably depend on how good a scan converter or video card you use. I have recorded some slideshows to VHS using a scan converter but the quality was lacking, but it was VHS also. I would think recording to DVD would provide better quality although probably still not as good as on a PC.

[Danabw]

Les:

Yes - that would also be an option (assuming you have the $ for one of those units they were about $1000 few months ago when I looked at them).

Even simpler might be to take the signal directly to the recorder, assuming that's possible.

It would never work for me...even if I had one of them, if I asked my wife if I could put a computer next to the TV I know the exact "Over my dead body" look she would give me. . .

Dana

[ADB]

Thanks Les

At last! A DVD recorder can record a Video output to your Recordable DVD Player, therefore does it not follow you can record a PTE presentation to DVD? as long as you have a Video out on your graphics card.

So what I am saying is if you like PTE and can wait (no less than a year suspect) DVD recorders will be MUCH cheaper and you will be able to record your PTE presentation in high quality DVD!!!

At that stage don't all these other softwares like Proshow, Xatshow, Pictures2Dvd etc etc become obsolete?

HAS ANY BODY OUT THERE GOT A RECORDABLE DVD AND A VIDEO OUTPUT ON THEIR COMPUTER THAT CAN TEST HOW A PTE SHOW RECORDS TO DVD?

[Danabw]

Seems like we hit a nerve. Prices appear to be in the mid-$600's at this point, so they've fallen almost a third in the past six months or more. By this time next year you might be able to find them on ebay for a reasonable price.

Coupla caveats:

1. PTE menus, links, etc., won't transfer to the DVD as active content - just video. So you'll likely want to leave them out and capture just the flow of images in the slide show.

2. DVD recorders like the Phillips provide some basic indexing capability for content recorded on the DVD (thumbnails for each individual recording session on the disc). If you want to create customized menus or nested menus, chapter points in a show, etc., you'd need to author on a PC.

3. Some of the recorders out there only do +R or -R formats, not the RW (rewritable) ones. Not as good an option if you want to test things first on an RW before burning final. Media prices are falling, but may be a while before they hit the point where most of us would want to create a bunch of DVD coasters testing things.

4. No idea what the quality would be like. Using Svideo and optical audio out (which some newer PCs have) it should be pretty good.

The big bonus here from a time perspective is that the DVD recorders use hardware encoding, so there isn't the long wait to convert content to DVD format as w/software encoding most of us currently use.

Dana