Difference in monitor vs projector displays

[Ed Overstreet]

Forgive my ignorance of most things electronic, but on re-reading the Wiki entry and Panasonic's reply, is there any difference between what Panasonic calls YPbPr, the Wiki entry suggests should be merged with "component video" and S-video (which I believe Colin mentioned earlier is another phrase for component video). If they're essentially all different words for the same thing, then we already tested that on Tuesday, found it did solve the problem of tearing but caused sharpness problems that were worse, unless we plan on limiting our projections to audiences like Ken's (and probably my own) grandkids

I think I need to leave this alone for a week or so and come back to it later when I haven't been thinking about it so much ... At the moment I feel like I'm just going around in a large circle and packing the snow down.

Though don't they go around in circles when they thresh wheat? I can't remember

[Ken Cox]

Jim

they are experimenting with "Wheat Shorts" as a component of "BIOMASS" to supplement/replace coal for the coal fired generating stations -- Western University in conjunction with Sarnia have a new research park located on the old Dow Chemical corporate head office site.

ken

[sanewcomb]

The jerkiness is related to how the picture frame is process. On old CRT monitor. The picture is process line by line. Therefore you will not see any jerkiness. On most flat panel display or projectors, the picture is process frame by frame.

Interesting comment on line vs. frame signal processing. However, if most flat panel computer displays use frame processing then the laptops would most likely be showing the same problem, and they do not.

I looked at the manual for the SX50 and it is a very nice and powerful projector. I'm sure there is a work around for this problem.

Ed, have you tried turning off the progressive scan option (if it is on)? Or turning it on if it is off. Page 67 of the manual.

One work around that should work would be to create HD Videos in P2E, then display them using a powerful enough laptop/desktop. The FPS value should be set in the video file and if the computer is fast enough it should keep up and output at a fixed FPS. (I don't see a setting for the FPS in the HD Video option under the Create function, but under AVI video file you can select 1280x720 60 FPS). I know converting all the slideshows to MP4s would be a bother, but it should give a much better quality image than the s-video or other video (non-computer) input options.

This should work whether connected with the standard VGA 15 pin connector or the more modern DVI connector on the projector. But if one doesn't work, try the other.

I think it would be fairly easy for WnSoft to offer a fixed FPS output for P2E exe files. Maybe he could send you a custom build beta to see if that does the trick.

Steve Newcomb

Tucson, AZ USA

[Conflow]

Ed and Jim and Interested

Exactly what are the 'Frame-Rates of your respective Projectors ??.....Forgive me for saying this...But there is not much point in

looking into New Projectors specifications unless you become familiar with these figures in the 1st. instance.

As to what Panasonic are saying in 'Red' below.....in simplified Englsh terms,viz:-

1) The jerkiness is related to how the picture frame is process. On old CRT monitor. The picture is process line by line.

Therefore you will not see any jerkiness.

In old TVs and Computer CRT Monitors the Picture is built up on the Screen as 625 Lines Pal-Standard (Rastered) but there is

also a small Chromenance delay due to Colour persistance of the special phosphurs used to coat the back of the CRT Tube.

Consequently any small errors are masked by the Colour persistance.

2) On most flat panel display or projectors, the picture is process frame by frame....

Yes thats true, but what they mean is that the Picture is digitally generated 'pixel by pixel' synchronously in the Vertical and

Horizontal axis at a Frame-Rate of 60.Fps, so what you see is virtually instantaneous and 'Flicker-Free'.

3) The actual displayed frame and the incoming frame are not at the same frequency.

That is also true because Projectors display at TV-Video Rate (Approx 25/30 Fps) whereas your PC is running at 60.Fps

they say that in their #6. point below ~ and indeed I have said that on many occasion's before.

4) Therefore some in-coming frame's will have to be dropped every now and then.

Thats also correct for the simple reason that the 'Projectors Memory Buffer' can not handle those Frame-Rates coming

from your PC and I have also mentioned that before.

5) That is why you see the jerkiness on a pan. The faster the refresh rate of the Graphic card, the more jerkiness the display is.

Also written and explained in detail before

6) The displayed frame is very close to a Video frame that is why you can hardly see it in Video.

In my recent Post above I advised that the PC frame-Rate should nearly match that of the Projectors-Rate (TV-Video Fps)

Looks as if Panasonic are saying the same as I am ~ only difference being that I was trained by Sony Corp.

7) I would suggest try a computer with a component out and feed it to the projector through the VGA port and change the VGA port to YPbYr.

Then you should be able to select 720p or 1080i signal which will give you the higher resolution

They are suggesting the YPbYr method which is the 'Home-Video Format' using 3 Video-Connections with Analog-Output VGA ~ but that won't

get around the compatible 'Frame-Rate' problem nor the 'Buffer-Overflow' problem's and dare I say -lack of Sync-Pulses- for what is essentially

a Motion-Picture Format not a "straight" Slide Show.

Seem's to me as if I am 'Posting in the Wilderness' for all the good it's done ~ Sure Video is a steep learning curve, no different that PTE 5.6.

But one thing is for sure, unless PTE (Video) Members become familiar with simple Video-Facts no amount of button-pushing nor purchase

of expensive equipment will overcome the current problems experienced.

Also, I don't see any future in waiting for Projector-Manufacturers to change their 'proven-designs' for what is a Fringe-Market ~ better off to get

to grips with what we have ~ alternatively change the whole thing to MP4 Video Format, that might work !!

Regards,

Brian.Conflow.

[fh1805]

Brian,

I have been working in collaboration with Jim and Ed on this problem. I agree with everything you are saying but would like to draw your attention to a point I made in post #50 (on page 3 of this long topic) which I now summarise here:

If I use my old Fujitsu-Siemens laptop and connect it to my Dell projector, I can make the problem come and go as and when I want it to simply by toggling the laptop from: own monitor plus projector to projector only and back again using the appropriate Fn key on the keyboard.

If what you saying in your posts is true, and I have no reason not believe you, then this suggests to me that the actual signal leaving the blue 15-pin D socket is different in the two cases. It would seem likely that the signal is operating at 60Hz when both the monitor and projector are active but at 30Hz when only the projector is active.

How can the actual signal characteristics be monitored to confirm this? And if this is what is happening, then why don't all computers behave the same way?

regards,

Peter

[JEB]

Good morning all,

I don't know how relevant this is but as I have been following this thread for its duration, as our CC may be purchasing a new projector in the near future the following may be of interest.

I have a Canon SX50 and an HP laptop with a nVIDEA 7600 graphics chip which I am very happy with.

Normally when giving AV presentations at the club I use my own kit. Last night I used the club's desktop which is a much higher spect. m/c than mine but with my SX50 rather than the club's ageing projector.

I prefer to project with the PC screen off and had set the desktop to that mode. What I found was I could NOT ESCAPE from a PTE show using the ESC key on the keyboard of the desktop as I can from my laptop. (Just double checked this morning).

This may be relevant to what you are saying Peter.

Regards

John

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I think we should all be aware that with the increase of the capability of PTE combined with an upsurge of "Home Cinema" style projectors the chances of getting the wrong spec projector/computer for AV work is increased dramatically. It might be advisable when up-grading PC/Laptop/Projector to have a test done with a complicated AV show to ensure they do what we want. Maybe one of the "Superusers" could produce a test show of say 5MB with all the bells & whistles incorporated and post it on Mediafire or the other free upload/download sites & pin it in the PTE instructions section.

Yachtsman1

[Conflow]

Yachtsman,

Your Post #82 above with your suggestion makes "solid common sense" and it really is about time that such

a "Test-Show" was made with an Instructions-Sheet in the Show-Folder. The whole Pte-Show could easily be

installed on any cheap 'Memory-Pen' or on to 1.Gb Camera 'SD-Card' which most PC's and New Projectors

will accept. That neately sidesteps all the CD artifacts which most PC exhibit from time to time.

Golden Rule:- If it can't play from a 'Memory-Pen' nor from an 'SD-Card' the equipment is useless !

In Equipment selection terms, it sure would sort out the 'men from the boys' instantaneously, and I can see

some very 'Red-Faced Salespeople' running for cover ~ that alone is worth the effort making the 'Test-Show'.

Good suggestion...

Brian.Conflow.

[Conflow]

Brian,

I have been working in collaboration with Jim and Ed on this problem. I agree with everything you are saying but would like to draw your attention to a point I made in post #50 (on page 3 of this long topic) which I now summarise here:

If I use my old Fujitsu-Siemens laptop and connect it to my Dell projector, I can make the problem come and go as and when I want it to simply by toggling the laptop from: own monitor plus projector to projector only and back again using the appropriate Fn key on the keyboard.

If what you saying in your posts is true, and I have no reason not believe you, then this suggests to me that the actual signal leaving the blue 15-pin D socket is different in the two cases. It would seem likely that the signal is operating at 60Hz when both the monitor and projector are active but at 30Hz when only the projector is active.

How can the actual signal characteristics be monitored to confirm this? And if this is what is happening, then why don't all computers behave the same way?

regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

I remember that I commented previously on your Fujitsu PC and I had said in general terms that the Data-Bus on older PC's/Laptops

is much slower than modern PCs and consequently the 'Refresh-Rate' should be lower than 60.Fps.

If its an (Older-Generation) design of Laptop the probability is that's its using a Led-Monitor or a TFT Led-Monitor and the 'refresh'

of those was lower than 60.Fps ~ now this is conjecture, because I don't have your Laptop Specs to hand, so its a guess !!

Frame-Refresh Rate should be available from your PC.Monitor 'Screen Properties' or from within 'Device-manager'.

Have a look at the 'Attachment' this may help you to find out the 'Refresh-Rate' in Laptop-Monitor Mode and in Ext.Monitor Mode.

Sorry, I dont have the exact system-detail of your Device-Manager nor your Monitor-Properties (Windows selection system) but

have a look at the attachment anyway...

Regards,

Brian.

P.S You will need to 'expand the Image' when opened

[Ken Cox]

I suggested many moons ago -- not in this thread -- that test shows be created that would "separate the men from the boys"

HAD NO TAKERS

when Igor was bring ver 5 on he had us run test shows that he made and report what graphic card etc the show was run on

-- members are all the time asking for specs to buy a laptop etc

why cant Igor develop a bare minimum set of specs / guidelines readily available as well as come up with a set of shows readily available for download for testing

of course he would have to halt further development of the main program while this is accomplished

but then it is done once and for all

ken

[fh1805]

Brian,

Thanks for the info (in post #84). I've just done those checks on my desktop system (to make sure I understood what you were asking me to do). I'll do the same with both my laptops, with and without the projector attached, sometime over this weekend. Also, during the course of this week, I discovered that my Dell projector has a menu setting that allows me to adjust the Frame-Refresh rate. I'll also take a look at this, but carefully! Right now my projector ain't broke, so any "fixing" will be done very carefully indeed. Rest assured, all tests will be done on the basis of one change at a time.

regards,

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I think we should all be aware that with the increase of the capability of PTE combined with an upsurge of "Home Cinema" style projectors the chances of getting the wrong spec projector/computer for AV work is increased dramatically. It might be advisable when up-grading PC/Laptop/Projector to have a test done with a complicated AV show to ensure they do what we want. Maybe one of the "Superusers" could produce a test show of say 5MB with all the bells & whistles incorporated and post it on Mediafire or the other free upload/download sites & pin it in the PTE instructions section.

Yachtsman1

Just been having a root around in my advanced display file in control panel for my Samsung G15 laptop. There is some interesting info in there & some I'm unsure about.

1 "Some games & other programmes must be run in 256 colour mode"

2. "Display has DPI Settings, normal, which is what it is usually set at 96dpi, large 120 dpi or Custom???

3. Screen refresh rate set at 60hz with options to set up to 180hz, with a tick box if you don't want to dispaly rates that may damage the system, ticked the box & the rates above 60 disappeared

4. Hardware Accelerator, Full with a tick against "enable write combining"

If the superusers are a little shy at coming forward with the test piece suggested above, may I suggest Peter for Europe & Lin for over the pond

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

Eric (yachtsman1),

Thank you for your vote of confidence in me: by putting my name forward without the courtesy of consulting me first. However, I'm not willing to do what is being suggested for one simple reason:

- I am not prepared to be blamed for the situation that could occur when a computer+projector combination, subsequent to its purchase, fails to deliver the goods even though it ran the "Test Sequence" successfully.

In my opinion, there are too many variables in this equation that are outside the control of the user. I will continue to work with Ed and Jim for as long as, collectively, we think there is any mileage in such continuation.

I will participate in any discussion about what should form part of any "Test Sequence". But that will be the limit of my involvement in this matter.

regards,

Peter

[Ken Cox]

Peter

how would you be blamed ??

I suggested Igor make a series of shows or he could review shows that have been put up for download and possibly determine starting points for testing from them

a few years back when we were trying to determine loading on system i installed the ASUS temperature monitor program, with my ati all in wonder board i was not able to monitor the tempurature of the board so i went out and spent $ 150 +- to get a non contact temperature probe to measure -- I thought it prudent not to use my Fluke contact probe

We fed all this info to Igor to help him solve the problems we were having at the time

when doing test work you take chances otherwise we would not be as advanced as we are

afterall it is just 1's and 0's

Abacus:)

ken

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Peter

Can't see how you could be blamed if the test show was fully quantified. EG this show was produced usind PTE 5.??? on this computer/projector using xyz and runs without any problems. It would then be up to the individual to decide if the equipment they were checking was what they wanted. Also it would then be possible to build up a data base of equipment that passed or failed that particular test show. To take this idea further, when someone new was planning to buy PTE, a suggestion of which version would best suit their level of equipment could be made.

Regards Enthusiatic Eric

[Ed Overstreet]

I like the idea of someone producing a test show that we can all use whenever we're finally in the market for a new projector or computer. However I completely understand and sympathize with Peter's reluctance to get involved, which I'd share were I comfortable doing such a show (which I'm not).

I'd already decided that the next time the club is in the market for a new projector, I will plead, beg, or demand that we run the test show that Jim and I created and posted above on any projector under consideration before buying it. Selfish of me, but I have no interest in a projector that can't run a simple pan through a panorama stitch, at a minimum. So there's a start (but not a finish) for a test show. Surely to goodness it's not unreasonable to expect a projector, computer and AV software to do a reasonably-paced pan through a panorama file (which inevitably is going to be a large file, unless you want to live with pretty pathetic resolution). Honestly folks, I have trouble seeing much value in a pan feature that can't pan through a bloody panorama stitch, except on my monitor at home! With all respect to Ken Burns et. al.

I'm happy to volunteer my panorama file, posted in the link way at the beginning of this thread, for inclusion in such a test show, if the designer of the test show doesn't have a better example to use.

I'm still puzzled, as I think Jim is and perhaps Peter, by why we encounter these problems only with certain pans and not with other animations, but I accept that it has something to do with frame-rate incompatabilities somewhere. Though I'd have hoped that if some animations work just fine on our projectors and others don't, that maybe there is something Igor can do in the programming of a later version to accommodate those "problematic" animations that we've identified. But not being a software engineer and knowing nothing of how the PTE code is written, I have no idea whether that is feasible. However for now I guess I just have to live with the fact that certain animations that seem pretty innocuous and conservative to me just aren't going to work on our current equipment. I don't have to like it, though.

[davegee]

Instead of "someone" constructing a test show, why not (perhaps in a separate thread) assemble a set of "rules" which might be used to construct a taxing test show?

Does there need to be more than one test show?

One for 1024x768 projectors, one for 1400x1050 projectors and one for 1920x1080 projectors.

For instance, and as a starting point, I see no point in testing a projector with images which are anything less than the full working resolution of the projector.

They would also need to be quality 12 images (in Adobe speak).

So, there is a starting point for testing a 1920x1080 projector for instance:

A 1080 high and 3000+ pixels wide image saved at quality 12, panned in 30 seconds. For testing the 1050 and 768 high variants the images would be scaled down to suit.

My computer would handle such a test - would a 1920x1080 projector connected to it via a HDMI cable do the same?

DaveG

[Ken Cox]

Dave

sounds like plan

please move your thread to the tutorial section -- give it an appropriate title and i will try to pin it

ken

[bmccammon]

I've been following this thread with interest and would love the opportunity to construct a standard test show that conforms to some accepted set of "rules" or use a show(s) that someone else contributes.

I recently purchased a little Netbook PC (Asus EeePC 1000H) for use on the road. This sub-notebook is designed to be highly portable and is NOT intended to be any kind of production machine. Its main uses are to access the internet and to do email or take notes. The specs of interest to this group are:

1016 mb RAM

Intel Atom CPU N270 processor running at 1.6 gHz

Mobile Intel 945 Express video chipset family (Intel GMA 950, 128 mb)

Working screen resolution = 1024 x 600 for full screen without scrolling.

Screen refresh rate = 60

I recently put together a short (4:11) show using PTE v5.6. The show involves 65 images sized at 1024 x 768, one MP3 music track. The images show with durations ranging from 15 seconds to 0.5 second. The show incorporates one long panning/zooming sequence (15 second duration) and some "quick" transitions, dissolves and some object pan/zoom on top of parent images. The show is about 27mb in size.

I use an Infocus LP600 projector with a native resolution of 1024 x 768. Connection to the EeePC is via a VGA port/cable.

With the little EeePC running on battery power I loaded the .EXE file onto the hard disk, turned on the projector and ran the show. Everything worked perfectly with the small exception of a very brief stutter about 4 seconds into the 15 second panning image. All the other transitions were smooth. Pan/zoom of objects was smooth. Image quality is as good as I've ever seen from a projected show.

I also ran the show from a memory stick and got the same results.

I just thought it was interesting that the show ran quite well on a PC that costs less than some of the new high power video cards.

More grist for the mill I imagine.

[JRR]

....

A 1080 high and 3000+ pixels wide image saved at quality 12, panned in 30 seconds. For testing the 1050 and 768 high variants the images would be scaled down to suit.

My computer would handle such a test - would a 1920x1080 projector connected to it via a HDMI cable do the same?

DaveG

Dave:

I suspect a 30 second pan would pass a test with no issue.

We know a 2244x768 image smooths out between 25 and 30 seconds

We also found that it is not so much the size (pixel or kb) that affects jitteriness/wipe/etc. Once you have slowed the pan down enough, the frame rate issue is not really an issue because the movement is so slow.

We also feel a 30 second pan is not realistic to be used. SOmething more like 10-15 seconds maybe

Just a my thoughts

[JRR]

....

A 1080 high and 3000+ pixels wide image saved at quality 12, panned in 30 seconds. For testing the 1050 and 768 high variants the images would be scaled down to suit.

My computer would handle such a test - would a 1920x1080 projector connected to it via a HDMI cable do the same?

DaveG

Dave:

I suspect a 30 second pan of that file would pass our projector test with no issue.

We know a 2244x768 image smooths out between 25 and 30 seconds

We also found that it is not so much the size (pixel or kb) that affects jitteriness/wipe/etc. Once you have slowed the pan down enough, the frame rate issue is not really an issue because the movement is so slow.

We also feel a 30 second pan is not realistic to be used. SOmething more like 10-15 seconds maybe

Just my thoughts

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I to was thinking of a netbook as a standby machine and was reading specs on a couple of them from reviewers, not manufacturers, one reviewer remarked that all the netbooks he'd tested only transmitted svga signals, not xga as is standard at present, and being gradually superceeded by wxga & wsgva. Going back to svga seems a bad move so I will think again, maybe making sure your next PC/Laptop has an HDMI connection is the way to go???.

Yachtsman1

[davegee]

Jim,

My suggestion was as a starting point for a set of "instructions" or "rules" which would allow anyone to construct his or her own show to test both laptop and projector.

So taking your comments into consideration you would recommend that (presumably for a 1024x768 projector) one of the tests be a 15 second pan using a 3:1 image at full height?

If you translate that into a formula for a 1920x1080 projector your suggestion becomes 3240x1080 (I said 3000+ x 1080) so I wasn't far out and I accept your suggestion of 15 seconds.

The same figure for a 1400x1050 projector would be 15 seconds pan - 3000+ x 1050.

I don't think that the width of the image would matter but I can see that the speed of the pan might.

Would you agree on that as a starting point?

Would you also agree on the importance of using a quality 12 image in order to provide the maximum "drain on resources" and eliminate another variable?

DaveG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Jim,

My suggestion was as a starting point for a set of "instructions" or "rules" which would allow anyone to construct his or her own show to test both laptop and projector.

So taking your comments into consideration you would recommend that (presumably for a 1024x768 projector) one of the tests be a 15 second pan using a 3:1 image at full height?

If you translate that into a formula for a 1920x1080 projector your suggestion becomes 3240x1080 (I said 3000+ x 1080) so I wasn't far out and I accept your suggestion of 15 seconds.

The same figure for a 1400x1050 projector would be 15 seconds pan - 3000+ x 1050.

I don't think that the width of the image would matter but I can see that the speed of the pan might.

Would you agree on that as a starting point?

Would you also agree on the importance of using a quality 12 image in order to provide the maximum "drain on resources" and eliminate another variable?

DaveG

Hi Dave

I think the quality 12 image suggestion goes against the parameters set down in the PTE manual. whereby I think the maximum allowable level should fall within the guidelines. The actual "level" of picture quality is determined by what the camera is set at when the picture is taken, and as you know many of us shoot in Raw then dull down the image to maintain an acceptable file size for the show. If it was done as you suggest, there could be problems with camera/PC/projector capabilities. With that in mind I would suggest the "Test" show be constructed using the figures suggested in the current PTE manual but using all the bells & whistle capabilities of PTE.

Regards Eric.

(Yachtsman1)

[davegee]

Hi Eric,

Point taken, but when you say: "If it was done as you suggest, there could be problems with camera/PC/projector capabilities."......

... I thought that was the object of the excercise?

What is the point in testing a projector, for instance, with a laptop which will only handle quality 8 or 10 images when a future purchase of a higher spec laptop will (possibly) show up problems that weren't previously seen? If the user's laptop will not cope with such a test show then it merely highlights the need for a new laptop as well as the intended projector purchase.

Anyhow, all that is being suggested is a set of guidelines to construct a test show - if the user wishes to use a lower quality so be it.

For my part, I'll continue to use 1200 pixel high, quality 12 images for viewing on my own monitor and TV as long as my desktop and laptop computers will perform without grumbling.

Best wishes,

DaveG